Minutes from the new committee

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Minutes from the new committee

Post  Jay on 23/12/2013, 11:23 pm





MGCC Racing Register Committee Meeting Minutes
Date................16/12/13
Venue.............Hobson’s
Meeting commenced.....7.0PM
Present ..........Andrew Watson, David Vernall, David Mottram, Jim Robertson, Paul Vernall, Simon Rogers, and Phil Chester


Items of Business
1. Welcome to new Committee members from the Captain AW
2. Committee Roles/Responsibilities
Captain Andrew Watson
Vice-Captain Paul Vernall
Treasurer Phil Chester
Member Liaison Phil Chester
Secretary Simon Rogers
Garages/Red Mist cafe/Trophies David Vernall
Points Score/Registrations/Comp Numbers David Mottram
Website David Mottram
Calendar Andrew Watson
Wheelspin/Publicity/Facebook Paul Vernall
Monthly Newsletter/Clubroom Board Paul Vernall
Driving Standards Peter Rose/Ken Price/David Vernall
Race Meeting Drivers Liaison Andrew Watson
Vehicle Eligibility Andrew Watson
Invited British Liaison Jim Robertson
Race Commentary Charles Rogers
Engine Capacity Tester Paul Trevethan



3. Treasurer’s Report Records have been received from the past Treasurer (Peter Dunn) and will be analysed in due course.
Most likely will use MYOB and migrate the records to whatever is required by the main MGCC
$100 donation has been made to the Scrutineering Panel for Xmas party
A few money raising ideas were discussed and will be actioned by the Treasurer.
Access to Bank Account will be transferred from the previous Committee and Treasurer.
It was emphasised that all payments were to be made to the Racing Register Bank Acct for full and transparent accounting reasons.

4. Calendar Confirmed dates are as follows
• Phillip Island 12/13 April PIARC
• Sandown 17/18 May MGCC
• Sandown 19/20 July Sports Sedan Association
• Phillip Island 4/5 October Mini Club
• Sandown Historic 8/9 November MGCC/VHRR
• Other dates/venues being investigated
• Winton Long Track Historic (Festival of Historic Motor Racing) in August........TBA
• Winton VMRC Race meeting (or possibly two rounds).....................................TBA
• Calder Twilight meeting in association with Driver Training.............................TBA but Feb/March possible
As usual it will be the Best six Rounds
• Another date of importance is the MGCC General meeting where the Racing Register is responsible for the catering at the club rooms date is Wed April 9th 2014
• Also MG Car Club Concours at Flemington Sunday 30th March 2014
This event is combined with RACV and a huge display is on offer and its important that we have some MG Racers on display






5. Series Registration
It was resolved that
a. All Registration in hand for 2013 would automatically flow into 2014
b. DM and PC would produce a Registration Form complete with all known details of the driver and send to the drivers along with a “Show Bag” seeking any corrections to the data.
c. Once a driver/car is Registered, DM will keep track of any car change. The driver will not need to register the new car. This will make life easier for any driver who for whatever reason changes cars, they do not need to “re-Register”.

6. Classes for 2014
It was resolved that the Classes for 2014 would be as follows
a. Open 1 four cylinder cars
b. Open 2 more than four cylinders
c. Classic MG all MG’s made up to and including MGB (and including MG RV8) (basically all MGBs and those prior irrespective of number of cylinders.
d. Modern MG All MG’s made post MGB (excluding RV8) irrespective of number of cylinders
e. MG Specials and Invited British The MG Specials must have a proven “historic” race history
f. None members and Unregistered
It is accepted that this is a radical change to the Class structure. There are three significant issues which are driving the change.
We have been witnessing a very significant decline in the number of MGBs racing and this is partially caused by our insistence on absolute compliance with the Historic Regs for the Logbooks. Many of the cars do not comply and once challenged the owners are voting with their feet and not racing with us rather than moving to Fast Road and competing against the MGF/ZR brigade. We have a responsibility to provide grids for all MG’s and to nurture MG Racing as a category so that it can continue for another decade or more. Also the Historic V8 MGBs and MGCs are not racing with us so this change may encourage their return to the fold as they should be competitive in the new “Classic MG” class.
The landscape of the cars making up the grids has changed radically in the last few years with a majority of the cars now being either MGFs or MG ZRs or the like and we need to adapt to that change rather than being stuck in the past. These cars are very modern cars with lots of natural advantages over the older cars so it seems a natural division for the class structure. These are the cars which are more attractive to race as they are more reliable, cheaper and dare it be said quicker out of the box.
The overall number of competitors in 2013 was down by around 25% and we need to make changes to address the decline. We need to make it simpler to Register (hence the procedure changes above) and we need to make it simpler, more affordable and offer a more competitive class structure.
It was also resolved that MG ZR190 will run in the Open 1 class along with the MGF Cup specification cars, the BTCC cars the Judd ZR and any “modern” MG made by the factory as a pure race car.
It is noted that no MG ZR190 was made as a road-registerable car; they were all made as race series cars with the appropriate modifications. The MG ZR 160s were made as road-registerable cars so will be in the Modern Class. MGF Trophy cars will race in the Modern Class. (It should be noted that AW and PV abstained from voting on the ZR190 issue).



At this stage a “Frontline” MG would be classified as an Invited British class car.
At this stage any car “Classic” MG fitted with a K-Rover motor would be an Open 1 Class car. As the Register moves forward this is an issue that can be addressed as the fitting of such an engine is straight forward and can make for a cost effective MG race car.
As with any radical class changes there may well be some unintended consequences and the Committee reserves the right to address those issues as they arise and make an appropriate ruling on the car’s class, as has always been the case.

6. Rolling Starts As has been noted on many occasions one of the most dangerous times of the race is the starting procedure. This is especially true on our grids due to the potential speed differentials we often see when a very fast car has to start from the rear of the grid for some reason. To date we have not had a major incident but the recent death at Phillip Island when the 240Z ran into the rear of the Lambo highlights the issue.
To this end it was resolved that we will trail Rolling Starts for all our races at the MGCC round in May.
Drivers are encouraged to read the CAMS Manual to familiarise themselves with the correct procedure (which will of course also be discussed at Drivers Briefing at the race meeting).

7. Standing Orders There is a need for a set of Standing Orders to cover the running of the Register and in particular the Annual Election of Office Bearers. JR has produced a Draft and AW will refine it before it is offered to members and the Board of the MGCC
16. AOB
The Secretary to send a Get Well card to Paul Trevethan
AGM Minutes to be sent to Members........Secretary to action
Minutes for this meeting to be sent to Members.........Secretary to action
Sat 15th February is the date of the State Race Series Presentation Dinner at Windy Hill. Members are urged to support this dinner as our Champion Rod Barrett will be presented with his Trophy.
The possibility of a Handicap Race will be addressed next Committee meeting. It may spice up the racing and could be achieved simply and safely with a “shot gun start” procedure.
The next three Committee meeting dates are as follows:
Mon 13th Jan, Mon 10 Feb, Mon 17th March @ Hobson’s @ 7.00 with the usual arrangements.


MEETING CLOSED at 11.25pm


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Re: Minutes from the new committee

Post  Jay on 23/12/2013, 11:23 pm

Thoughts anyone.
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Minutes from the new committee

Post  mgracer10 on 27/12/2013, 6:46 am

Do I dare to make a comment?

I have already made some (conservative) observations on Facebook.... but....

I would be interested to hear what the guy's with MGB Historic Sb (4cyl) log books think about it??

I would be very surprised if they take the new class structure decision lightly.... but due to people being on holiday, it may take a few weeks to get a complete reaction.

Richard.
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Re: Minutes from the new committee

Post  griffinracing on 30/12/2013, 5:22 am

Hi all,

I'm watching with interest. My hopes are to get to a few rounds if I can. I won't get to enough events to ever post many point in your championship, but its nice to be competitive in one's class.

I assume my Midget will fit in the 'Classic' class. I think (if the car goes) I'm mid pack so as long as there are cars in front and behind, I'm having fun.

I look foward to more information (does the eligability points list to define class still apply?) and the final calendar down the 'track'. I hope I'll see you in May. Keep the information rolling.

Steve
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Re: Minutes from the new committee

Post  MG50 on 30/12/2013, 11:46 am

Jay wrote:


6. Rolling Starts As has been noted on many occasions one of the most dangerous times of the race is the starting procedure. This is especially true on our grids due to the potential speed differentials we often see when a very fast car has to start from the rear of the grid for some reason. To date we have not had a major incident but the recent death at Phillip Island when the 240Z ran into the rear of the Lambo highlights the issue.
To this end it was resolved that we will trail Rolling Starts for all our races at the MGCC round in May.
Drivers are encouraged to read the CAMS Manual to familiarise themselves with the correct procedure (which will of course also be discussed at Drivers Briefing at the race meeting).




Rolling starts come with a number of drawbacks ....................

1. Race Meeting Standing Regulations (found here: ...  http://docs.cams.com.au/Manual/Race/RA01-Race-Meeting-StandingRegs-2014-1.pdf  section 6.4.(i) Step4 implies that we set out from the marshaling area, form up on the grid in our grid positions and are waved off under green flag behind the pace-car,, pace car pulls off and we start the race in 2-by-2 grid formation as the lead car passes the start line under a full-course green - which implies 2 formation laps ... that being the case, I can assume the VSCRC organizers will penalize the category at least 1 race lap .... is this really what we want ?
2. A rolling start means at T1 incident will occur at least 60kph faster that otherwise
3. In the event that the CAMS State Council accedes to a request for a single formation lap, our category has hitherto NOT demonstrated the ability to form-up immediately upon exiting the marshaling area and to keep formation for the warm-up lap, so it would be a significant change of behaviour for the suggested change to be seamlessly implemented ...

if rolling starts are on the agenda, there is "a lot" of work to be done - engaging the VSCRC committee AND the CAMS State Council to make sure that we avoid losing a race-lap as one example.

I appreciate that this is a "good idea", but I stress that it is not a simple exercise.

As always, I am more than happy to be a part of the solution rather than simply tossing cr4p onto the table ......... all that needs to happen is to call me.

Robin Bailey (in case MG50 is does not clearly identify me).

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Re: Minutes from the new committee

Post  griffinracing on 30/12/2013, 2:04 pm

Robin & all,

FoSC uses rolling starts at its meetings at Sydney Motorsport Park (Eastern Creek) South Circuit due to room constraints for the grid (it goes around a corner). It might be worth speaking to Charles Jardine (I can supply numbers and email addresses) about how it runs. They've had several meetings there and as far as I know they've never had a problem.

As long as everyone gets off the dummy grid in a reasonable time following the pace car it can be done in one lap. The Regularity people seem to do it ok and some of their times are up there with racing (at least in NSW... maybe everyone up here is slower). At GEAR meetings we don't have a pace car and manage one event during the day as a rolling start (@ Wakefield Park). The drivers know that they only get a certain number of laps and if they stuff around they loose a lap or two until they get it together.

I'll take racing anyway I can get it, rolling or standing. As long as I'm out there. Rolling is less stress on the drive train though.

Steve

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Re: Minutes from the new committee

Post  Jay on 6/1/2014, 7:44 am

Are the old rules for classes null and void this year ?

I know of ZR190's made to 160 spec !

What if you put a 190 VHPD engine or even a Judd engine in a ZR160 ?
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Re: Minutes from the new committee

Post  greenmgf76 on 7/1/2014, 7:17 am

Jay wrote:Are the old rules for classes null and void this year ?

I know of ZR190's made to 160 spec !

What if you put a 190 VHPD engine or even a Judd engine in a ZR160 ?

That couldn't possibly happen could it Jase?  Wink 
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Re: Minutes from the new committee

Post  MGF99 on 13/2/2014, 5:29 am

I asked the new committee to clarify some of the more ambiguous rules for 2014 as follows:-

Can you please supply the answers to the following questions re the new 2014 MG Racing Rules.

Modern MG Class M1 and M2 Rules?
a) When the Rules say “all road registerable MG’s” does this mean that they have to be kept in full registerable condition (ie would pass a RWC and Registration check), or actually be road registered ? If this is not the real meaning, can you please supply a list of items that can be removed from the cars in their “Registerable”/ “original” form.
b) By gearbox internals are free, does this mean that the number of ratios, the method of gearshift (ie sequential), dog boxes are free as long as the casing is MG or Rover ?
c) By “Suspension is free” does that mean that the type of suspension and pick up points are free? ie could one put twin wishbone fabricated suspension with Coil over springs/shocks and fully adjustable sway bars on ?
d) What about wheel hubs ?
e) No mention of panels or interior trim. By that, does one expect that all original interior trim other than that required to fit required ROPS, including original passenger seat must be fitted, and that all exterior panels must be original for the chosen model ?
f) What about exterior panels? Must these be of original material and shape (ie flared guards)
g) What about factory fitted spoilers ?

Also regarding Classic MG Class C1 and C2 Rules?
a) Do the cars have to carry full original trim (like GpS) or can they be completely stripped out inside. If stripped out, what, if anything, must be retained ?
b) By gearbox internals are free, does this mean that the number of ratios, the method of gearshift (ie sequential), dog boxes are free as long as the casing is MG or Rover ?
c) By allowing modifications to firewalls (of what? MGB or Midget ?), this infers that someone can build say an MGB V8 Roadster, which is in contradiction to the requirement that cars must be fitted with their production engines and gearboxes, as the only production MGV8 was the BGTV8.
d) By “Suspension is free” does that mean that the type of suspension and pick up points are free? ie could one put twin wishbone fabricated suspension with Coil over springs/shocks and fully adjustable sway bars on ?
e) What about wheel hubs ?
f) If differential is free, does that mean for example that a Holden diff can be used, and if so, just the diff centre or the whole rear axle?
g) No mention of exterior panels. Must these be of original material, and shape (ie flared guards) ?
h) What about factory fitted spoilers ?

Obviously going into a new season, one must be sure that not only one’s own car, but those of other competitors in the same classes must comply to the new rules

What do others think about the new rules as published....are they clear enough or do they leave something to the imagination ?


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Re: Minutes from the new committee

Post  Jay on 13/2/2014, 8:31 am

I am going to put a 300bhp Judd engine and a dogbox into my 160 and smash the modern class.
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Re: Minutes from the new committee

Post  MGF99 on 13/2/2014, 8:44 am

Well that's what you can do, plus more, if you just go by these published rules !!

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Hmmm .....

Post  MG50 on 13/2/2014, 9:35 am

At the end of the day, each vehicle needs to comply with the provisions of its CAMS logbook category as well, failing which, the entrant is vulnerable to an adverse outcome from an eligibility protest.

Now we've never had such a protest, BUT the CAMS NCR's provide the mechanism.

For me, a valid approach is one that says if you are not specifically allowed to do it, then probably you cannot (or ought not).

There are also long-established principles about phrasing, like "gearbox internals are free" precluding additional ratios unless these are explicitly permitted elsewhere in CAMS regulations.

The real issue with "modern" MG's is their log-book category ... I personally don;t believe they should be 2nd Category, and should probably have 3J logbooks or "Production Car" logbooks .... but that is a personal view that may not be widely shared.

As for "registrable", the NCR's have a lot of specific detail in that respect, so can I exhort members to read the manual so that they are acquainted with the full context of the NCRs and category provisions.

Robin Bailey

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Post  MGF99 on 13/2/2014, 10:26 am

There is a paragraph within Schedule L that says:
"A log book is the property of CAMS.
A log book identifies a vehicle, its classification, its competition history and its past and present ownership. A log
book is not evidence of the eligibility of that vehicle for a particular category or group nor of compliance with event
regulations.
A vehicle may be entered in a competition for a classification other than that recorded in the log book.
Where this occurs it shall comply with the conditions for that competition (e.g. a 5th Category vehicle entered in a
contemporary competition shall comply with the technical regulations for that competition)."

So, no matter what Log Book classification a car is issued with, it can be entered in any class of MG Racing whatsoever. The Log Book has virtually no meaning, and a protest can only be against a car's failure to comply with the Rules of the competition it is competing in at the time, not whether it complies with it's log book, unless the Rules of the competition it is competing in require the car to comply with it's Log Book.

That being said, and you and I have agreed a while ago on this, the MG Racing Rules should apply the philosophy of "the car must be standard, but you are allowed to do this."............" Or apply the 3J principle. But a bit hard when some cars are Category 2 and some are Category 3. How can a Sports car have a Cat 3 Log Book? You could fire a cannon through the current MG Rules.

As for "Registerable", there are many references in the NCR's and the "General Requirements of Automobiles" in the CAMS Manual as to what may be exempt if a car is registered, but as far as I can see there is no specific rule that shows the requirements of a vehicle that is deemed to be able to be registered. If I'm mistaken, please let me know the Rule no and location in the Manual.

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Re: Minutes from the new committee

Post  MG50 on 13/2/2014, 10:45 am

My point is that the "Modern" Z-series cannot be a sports car, despite having only 2 doors.

The Monaro is a case in point ... it has 2 doors, but it is a Touring car.

There is an FIA document dating back to the 70's which defines the volume of a sports car - as I am sure you are aware ..... given 30 minutes with the Google-machine, I'll find it.

All that aside, all that the current Committee have done is confirmed the difficulty in writing rules, as we both know having invested hundreds or possibly thousands of hours in that dubious pursuit over the years.

Again, ask yourself the following question .... "is plonking a Judd into a ZR in the spirit" of MG racing.

I'm not on the Committee, so I don;t have to answer the question, but I do have an opinion - as I am sure you do.

For me, I am just going to go-racing ....


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Re: Minutes from the new committee

Post  Jay on 13/2/2014, 11:01 am

MG50 wrote:My point is that the "Modern" Z-series cannot be a sports car, despite having only 2 doors.

The Monaro is a case in point ... it has 2 doors, but it is a Touring car.

There is an FIA document dating back to the 70's which defines the volume of a sports car - as I am sure you are aware ..... given 30 minutes with the Google-machine, I'll find it.

All that aside, all that the current Committee have done is confirmed the difficulty in writing rules, as we both know having invested hundreds or possibly thousands of hours in that dubious pursuit over the years.

Again, ask yourself the following question .... "is plonking a Judd into a ZR in the spirit" of MG racing.

I'm not on the Committee, so I don;t have to answer the question, but I do have an opinion - as I am sure you do.

For me, I am just going to go-racing ....


What is the spirit of MG racing, make your car as fast as possible and win.
What is wrong with putting a Judd in a ZR/MGF/ZS, it like putting a V8 in a B (no offence) but there will soon be the MG SV ford engines going into the B's probably with superchargers putting out 700+ bhp

Me and Paul did a great sets of rules for the Modern class, helped by the British MG series.
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Re: Minutes from the new committee

Post  MGF99 on 13/2/2014, 11:35 am

Robin, You are absolutely right. A Sports car (MGF/TF) is a Category 2 car and a Sedan (ZR/S/T) is a Cat 2 car . You may recall that a Mazda RX7 was able to be classified both as a Sports Car and a Touring Car due to some dubious internal volume measurements.
However, that is not the point of my post. To combine the two in the one race can be done as long as the rules under which they race are well enough defined, which they aren't at the moment.
It's easy for you to just "go racing". The Open Class doesn't have the restrictions that M1/M2 and C1/C2 are supposed to have placed upon them, and that's the point I'm making, that the current rules are just too loose and haven't been thought through. People in these classes are wondering what in hell they are allowed to do.

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Re: Minutes from the new committee

Post  greenmgf76 on 13/2/2014, 10:41 pm



What is the spirit of MG racing, make your car as fast as possible and win.
What is wrong with putting a Judd in a ZR/MGF/ZS, it like putting a V8 in a B (no offence) but there will soon be the MG SV ford engines going into the B's probably with superchargers putting out 700+ bhp

Me and Paul did a great sets of rules for the Modern class, helped by the British MG series.[/quote]

You're forgetting the "bloody modern cars!" clause Jase Wink
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