MG Racing Classes

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MG Racing Classes

Post  mg8 on 11/9/2010, 5:30 am



Well here we go Racers. Only a member for 5 minutes & here is a contentious topic!
I am very disappointed to read that despite much midnight oil being burnt by our committe the classes are to remain the same for 2011.
Perhaps, to be more succinct, our classes do not need changing - they need discarding! Admirably designed about 15 years ago when Formula B was seen to be the saviour of MG Racing they have not really kept pace with the changing dynamics of the category.
Who would have foreseen a couple of years ago when Ken Price bravely rolled out his red MGF that within a couple of years there would be more MGF's racing than just about any other model of the marque - mainly due to Adrian Akhurst's dedication to finding them & importing them for racing!
But I digress - I was discussing classes so let me float one for you.
Given CAMS has given us classes why not use them? To me, to have a class like (for instance Sb) but not have to have your Sb car comply with it except if it is an historic race is a noncense!
Why not have three classes - "Historic" covering all the Sa, Sb, Sc and T cars, plus T Types & earlier if we ever see them and insist that the cars comply with their class. Next class "MGF's". Do what you like - run with or without slicks, Cup car, road car or the SA MGF class. Then simply "Open" for every other MG not covered. Maybe we will have to look at sedans in time if Jason can find some brother ZR's to race with! Any chance of someone finding one of those BTCC ZS's? Now there was a car!!
Of course the allocation of points (if you are mathematically adept enough to understand them is another matter but perhaps I will just offer one idea at a time!.
MG16



I find myself pleasantly suprised to read this post. I completely support JB's thoughts particularly the approach to the Historic Class. If we are going to persist ( and I think we should) with this class then it needs to be "fair dinkum". Otherwise we call it Fast Road. The only relaxation to the strict Historic rules should be to allow signwriting on cars- particularly if this helps with sponsorship. The other thing I would like to see would be a recognition of MGF as opposed to Cup Cars within the MGF class. Otherwise well done JB.

I would encourage others to comment- CONSTRUCTIVELY, for the forum to work requires good will from all participants.

Now for the pointscore!!!!!!

If anyone has not realised MG 8 is David Vernall.
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MG Racing Classes

Post  Gearbox on 11/9/2010, 6:38 am

I agree with the comments on Historic cars, if it is Historic it has to be the real deal, Sign writing is a must in all classes as with the current financial situation any backing (even from ones own company) makes competing that much more viable for people. Cup cars and "standard" F's I believe need to be separated, having worked on both types of cars extensively the differences are too great between them (seam welding, bhp, brakes, adjustable anti roll rates etc) and also to find an area for the modern cars (f's ZR, ZS, ZT, SV). These cars are making themselves more available and also quite cheap, eg a well sorted F or ZR 160 out of the UK can set you back maybe $25,000, I know having dealt with engine builders that an engine alone for a competitive front running b will set you back around $20,000 before you look at the car, suspension etc etc. This is going to make modern cars quite attractive to new racers and I anticipate seeing alot more of these cars on the grids in years to come.
Classes are going to be tricky, but I am sure that things like this forum will help, everyone has ideas and combined I am sure that we will come up with something that works, it might not be perfect but it will be a start.

Gearbox
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Re: MG Racing Classes

Post  greenmgf76 on 11/9/2010, 5:50 pm

Hmmm... Maybe. But if you consider the gap between the Cup F's and "standard" F's at Phillip Island is less that that the fastest B and slowest B then different arguments come into play. Also when is a Cup F not a Cup F? Do we seperate cars from the Cup F's just because they're not full factory spec? Otherwise we could have a "standard" F dominating their lower category - ala a Fast Road V8 on radials.

Even more reason why the new committee/technical committee should have a good grasp on moderntechnical updates.
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Re: MG Racing Classes

Post  Gearbox on 11/9/2010, 6:21 pm

I do see your point, I know of some "standard" (even road registered) F's that are running cup spec equipment and some "cup Spec" cars that are running road equipment (the Think car that Rod O'Malley drove at Mallala for example). Maybe a review of comparison lap times from different circuits could work?? but then how do you separate others? eg Mg Midgets on slicks, you have some running all A series gear (pushrod heads 2 valves per cylinder) and some running 16V heads and amazing levels of power, do you introduce a restriction on modification levels ala improved production classes, where would that leave the 5+ litre monsters of Mort and Tom etc. Tough gig for the committee and the more i think about it the harder I see the job being. In fact I do believe that I have already gone cross eyed
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Re: MG Racing Classes

Post  Jay on 12/9/2010, 12:26 am

I think the class should next to the number on the car in the form of a letter,

ie
open 1 = A
open 2 = B
fast road 1 = C

Etc
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Re: MG Racing Classes

Post  greenmgf76 on 12/9/2010, 5:01 am

I think the class lettering system is how the Porsche Cup guys ran before it became Carrera Cup over here. Ovbiously made things a bit easier for the spectator. Comparative lap time is one way for sure, but always reliant on weather and driver ability. Then you've got the circuit itself coming into play. Never ending minefield... I think the larger factor in the F groups is the gearbox; as (having driven the same engine with a standard and straight cut version) I found it can save you a huge amount of time.
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Re: MG Racing Classes

Post  Gearbox on 12/9/2010, 5:55 am

yeah a straight cut c/r box makes all the difference to be able to utilise the extra grunt of a cup engine, it is a tricky thing to judge, I like the idea of the lettering system, would make it lots easier for the spectators.
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Re: MG Racing Classes

Post  Pauly on 12/9/2010, 1:09 pm

Gearbox wrote:I agree with the comments on Historic cars, if it is Historic it has to be the real deal, Sign writing is a must in all classes as with the current financial situation any backing (even from ones own company) makes competing that much more viable for people. Cup cars and "standard" F's I believe need to be separated, having worked on both types of cars extensively the differences are too great between them (seam welding, bhp, brakes, adjustable anti roll rates etc) and also to find an area for the modern cars (f's ZR, ZS, ZT, SV). These cars are making themselves more available and also quite cheap, eg a well sorted F or ZR 160 out of the UK can set you back maybe $25,000, I know having dealt with engine builders that an engine alone for a competitive front running b will set you back around $20,000 before you look at the car, suspension etc etc. This is going to make modern cars quite attractive to new racers and I anticipate seeing alot more of these cars on the grids in years to come.
Classes are going to be tricky, but I am sure that things like this forum will help, everyone has ideas and combined I am sure that we will come up with something that works, it might not be perfect but it will be a start.

Gearbox
Paul De Keizer

The Zed’s have places to run depending on what log book, what tyres etc. so they don’t need a place to run, maybe if we got enough we could look into it, The SV, well it’s hardly a production car and IF one came out then it should be in Open imo (?). It's best results would come on slicks anyway so it should be common sense to run open.


Last edited by Pauly on 12/9/2010, 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: MG Racing Classes

Post  Pauly on 12/9/2010, 1:11 pm

Jay wrote:I think the class should next to the number on the car in the form of a letter,

ie
open 1 = A
open 2 = B
fast road 1 = C

Etc

I would agree with the lettering, or coloured windscreen strips or something like that to differentiate the classes, good idea. Could help people that are new or don't understand there are classes (ie general public) We have signwriters within MG Racing, surely something could be knocked up at cost?
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Re: MG Racing Classes

Post  Pauly on 12/9/2010, 1:13 pm

Gearbox wrote:I do see your point, I know of some "standard" (even road registered) F's that are running cup spec equipment and some "cup Spec" cars that are running road equipment (the Think car that Rod O'Malley drove at Mallala for example). Maybe a review of comparison lap times from different circuits could work?? but then how do you separate others? eg Mg Midgets on slicks, you have some running all A series gear (pushrod heads 2 valves per cylinder) and some running 16V heads and amazing levels of power, do you introduce a restriction on modification levels ala improved production classes, where would that leave the 5+ litre monsters of Mort and Tom etc. Tough gig for the committee and the more i think about it the harder I see the job being. In fact I do believe that I have already gone cross eyed

Fast Road probably could work with rules similar to Improved Production but tweaked to work with sports cars (i.e. they have cockpit dimensions etc.). I think that is a pretty good idea and isn’t that far removed from current rules so wouldn’t rule out existing cars. Maybe there's an idea? Very Happy

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Re: MG Racing Classes

Post  Pauly on 12/9/2010, 1:15 pm

greenmgf76 wrote:Hmmm... Maybe. But if you consider the gap between the Cup F's and "standard" F's at Phillip Island is less that that the fastest B and slowest B then different arguments come into play. Also when is a Cup F not a Cup F? Do we seperate cars from the Cup F's just because they're not full factory spec? Otherwise we could have a "standard" F dominating their lower category - ala a Fast Road V8 on radials.

Even more reason why the new committee/technical committee should have a good grasp on moderntechnical updates.

My 10c...Looking at Phillip Island results 2010 I see 5 seconds difference between the regular 4 pot B’s? (Excluding Edwards who’s first time out) and 10 seconds between Cup and F’s? (Not including Trent who had throttle issues) which makes the gap between a Cup and and ‘F’ a fair bit. (Yes I also know drivers ability, tyres, etc.) Now if you include the V8’s in the B argument…well of course there should be about 30 seconds between B's. A Cup F is a Cup F, Ken’s Cup car although not as it started is still a Cup car, if he were to put forced induction or a 6 speed sequential well it becomes open…Which Cup cars should be anyway imo. I agree, you do not want domination within a class, but then thats what gives everyone something to aim for.

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Re: MG Racing Classes

Post  Jay on 13/9/2010, 11:32 am

Pauly wrote:
Jay wrote:I think the class should next to the number on the car in the form of a letter,

ie
open 1 = A
open 2 = B
fast road 1 = C

Etc

I would agree with the lettering, or coloured windscreen strips or something like that to differentiate the classes, good idea. Could help people that are new or don't understand there are classes (ie general public) We have signwriters within MG Racing, surely something could be knocked up at cost?

A couple of A's is cheaper and easier.
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Re: MG Racing Classes

Post  griffinracing on 4/10/2010, 1:54 pm

I'll throw in another side. My Midget is log booked 2B and runs lots of fibreglass and big wheels, but... I was pleased that under the current rules I am in Fast Road. I run radials, and ALL my mechanicals are from the factory. No twin cam or cross flow heads, fuel injection, sequential gearboxes etc. I like my car this way and plan to keep it that way (and can't afford it anyway).

According to the current rules the non factory mechanical cars are in 'open' and if you run factory engine (block and head), gearbox and diff then you're fast road. My 103 rwhp can't ever compete with 190 hp of other Midgets. Under the proposed changes it looks like I would be sent to 'Open' with them and never have any chance of even catching sight of the podium. I came 10th and Damien's Midget was over 10" a lap quicker (and won the 3rd race) and we may end up in the same class. Not fair to me.

At PI under the current rules I think I came 4th twice and had good close races with the F's in my class.

In Marque Sports races I'm screwed for the same reasons as above, that why the MG Series looks good to me. I have a chance. The current system is fair to me. I'll hopefully be doing a lot more road trips south.

You'll never recognise me from my picture (except the short red hair... opps, I have a hat on).
Jonesy


Last edited by griffinracing on 4/10/2010, 1:56 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : I noticed something)
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Re: MG Racing Classes

Post  dm on 4/10/2010, 2:08 pm

A couple of alternatives worth thinking about for the discussion that we will have post 2010:

1. Division racing.....classes based on established times of competitors.........some issues but can work well and is not difficult to organise and monitor.

2. Classes based on power to weight ratios.........Ken Price would be able to inform us of the succes or otherwise of this system as he raced under it in the Porsche series. Does require much more effort and some cost and needs to be monitored very carefully.

Other suggestions if you want a change?

D

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Re: MG Racing Classes

Post  griffinracing on 4/10/2010, 2:24 pm

I know I will never be near the pointy end of a race, I'm too old and slow and I don't have enough money to overcome these performance impedance's. It is nice to have a good close race and maybe hold that huge trophy above my head for a class place... oops, sorry I nodded off again and was dreaming... strange, I looked a lot like Mark Weber, but I digress, everyone wants to be in a class that gives them a chance.

My B (that's in the photo) would also be in Fast Road as it isn't historic log booked and it would be contesting for 1st at the wrong end. But as long as I had a good dice with someone, would it matter? It's just a bonus to know you had a chance.

It is a very, very hard topic and there is no way that everyone will ever be totally happy. Life is about compromising, so if the rules change, I'll still come as long as I'm having fun.

Jonesy
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